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Reasonable fit and finish expectations...
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=8405		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  harmonist34 [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:24 am ]
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Author:  MSpencer [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:49 am ]
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Spending $2,000.00 on a Mandolin is not what I would consider low end. I would return the instrument and get my money back without question. I have a really really really low end Mandolin using this standard that is well made, clean, great binding work, fit and finish. I purchased it used at a guitar store after it set around for a year or so and spent less than $500.00.

I don't build Mandolins so I am not familiar with nor do I keep up with the "handmade" market. But I believe that the consumer should expect the instrument to be free from flaws such as the one's you outlined.

We have discussed this type of subject on many threads in the past mostly dealing with the transition from hobbyist to Professional Luthier. I think we are all Luthiers, but when you begin to get websites, accept commissions, offer your product retail or to the public, lots of things change some good and some things not so good.

I do admire these younger and/or less experienced guys who build absolutely outstanding instruments with a high attention to detail, overall appearance, performance and beauty. These few are rare and unique (although a growing number here on the OLF). I feel that folks that do second rate work and put it out there in the market do all of those who strive for excellence a bad rap in the market. It is a free country with a free market system, so you can sell whatever you like, I just hope that we don't start a 7/11 Convenience store mentality and there is one on every corner. Every industry has these problems, in Landscaping down here if you own a pickup truck and a wheel barrel it immediately authorizes you to be a Landscape Design and Contractor. I can remember not to many years back when custom Luthiers in the market were considered the Masters of the trade and were few and far between.

If it were my $2,000.00 I would expect to at least get my monies worth on the basics of clean binding, fits and finish if the thing was made of paper mache' or pallet material,

Sorry you are unhappy with your purchase and good luck.

My 2 cents

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Author:  harmonist34 [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:58 am ]
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Author:  Arnt Rian [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:02 am ]
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What style mandolin is this?
Author:  harmonist34 [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:04 am ]
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Author:  Steve Saville [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:52 am ]
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Send it back. Tell the builder why.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:54 am ]
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Yep. Send it back...

But man... I hear ya. I recently went to a festival and a guitar builder was there and I have to say that the quality was unbelievably bad. The back was on crooked, the interior was a mess, the binding had a couple huge gap that had been filled the bridge was off center. Huge gap under the heel cap, chips out of the heel ... it was a fright.

And I asked the builder how long he had been doing this (in a nice way)thinking he would say "a couple of years" and he said 40 years (kind of in that 'I know all there is to know tone of voice' ).... I wasn't quite sure how to respond to that.

Clearly some people sweat the details and others don't.

Author:  Bill Greene [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:59 am ]
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Yep, back it goes. No guilt either.
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:21 pm ]
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It sounds like you are disappointed and rightly so. Don't settle.
Author:  harmonist34 [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:27 pm ]
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Author:  Alain Desforges [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:52 pm ]
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The fit and finish seem pretty brutal. I would not accept that from 2K instrument. No way! He hardly spent time sanding that thing... To me it shows sloppy worksmanship... Get it done as quickly as possible, don't fret the finer details, get the money and run...

This reminds me of my 'signature'...

Good luck!
Author:  PaulB [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:12 pm ]
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Man, that's just nasty. Even for a first instrument it's pretty poor. No attention to detail at all, his workmanship leads me to believe that he doesn't like his job.

I didn't realise it was acceptable to finish sand with 80 grit.

Was his hand shaking when he held it out for the money?
Author:  Lillian F-W [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:32 pm ]
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Wow, I wouldn't have shown that if it was my first instrument. I can't imagine having the chutzpah to ask $2000.00 for that.
Author:  Steve Saville [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:59 pm ]
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Quality may be subjective, but after seeing the pictures, there is no question. The quality of work is not acceptable for a $2000 instrument. I don't think there is any question about that. That builder has a different perspective than almost everyone here. You should find someone else to represent.

My bottom line - I would not want my name associated with that instrument. I don't think you do either.
Author:  CarltonM [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:02 pm ]
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[QUOTE=harmonist34]What IS the reasonable difference to expect from a $2k handmade mando as opposed to a $4k? Or in guitar terms, a $1400 handmade as opposed to a $3000? $2000 vs. $4000?[/QUOTE]
Reputation and demand.

Andrew, that thing isn't worth $200.00, let alone $2,000.00! It looks more like a #1 than a #100. I'd be embarrased to GIVE that away, not to mention charging someone for it. Personally, I'll bet that any Eastman mando would sound better, because a builder has to work for the sound as well as the look. Since he obviously didn't care about how it looks....

I'm curious--how did you come to buy an instrument from this person? Apparently your purchase was sight-unseen?
Author:  MSpencer [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:31 pm ]
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Yikes! I just checked on the thread and saw the pic's since posting earlier today. You were certainly right on questioning the fit and finish, it appears nothing fits and varnish was placed over rough sanded plates. The frets looked sodered and how about those bindings
I agree with Carlton above.

Good Luck

Mike
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:19 pm ]
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Andrew...

That is very poor craftsmanship in my opinion.

I would never want to associate my good name with poor quality like that.

One of the most important (some times detrimental) aspects of this craft is getting all.....ALL the fit and finish right.

I would like to know how many of the folks here who have been to school (C.Fox, Roberto Venn, Robbie O'Brien, Gallop, Sergei de Jonge) what was instilled more, fit and finish or top tuning or.... Did your instructors get you to build that instrument so it would present well?

This instrument does not present well. I wouldn't pay $200 for it, it doesn't matter what the material was, it looks poor and that would lead me to believe that the rest of the craftsmanship was poor to.

Look at some of the student guitars that Tony has posted pictures of, or the ones that Robbie has posted pictures of. Those folks could sell those things for $2k or better I bet, if they had any sort of name.

I mean come one, just look at this



That is very poor work in my opinion, I mean there is no mitre on the point, and unless he has come up with a new "knurled finish" for his instruments, those sanding marks are just not acceptable. Than there is the rest of the binding job.

Andrew, if you are starting a retail guitar shop, I don't think you want to be selling instruments of this level. They will not help you in the least.

I know that I'm being harsh, but this is not quality in my books.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:57 pm ]
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I pretty much agree with everyone else. If I could buy that or an Eastman, well it's kind of a no brainer. Eastman or anything else for 2K.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:45 pm ]
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Guys, this is not a guitar. The F5 is very different animal, and extremely difficult to get right everywhere, ask anybody who builds them. How do you polish the insides of the scrolls? There are usually around 16 binding mitres on them, none of which are right angle, are they all this bad? These are extreme close-ups of problem areas. The pictures we often see on the web can be forgiving to some of these mistakes; I for one sure am glad I get to pick my own pictures when posting!

I agree that the details in these pictures, the f-hole edges and the finish and so on look rough, and I would never try to sell an instrument with so many problems, let alone ask 2000 for it. You should probably follow the advice given and send it back. Still, I don't think is fair to compare it to a guitar. I have only built 4 mandolins, but I could have made 3 times as many guitars in that time, seriously!
Author:  letseatpaste [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:55 pm ]
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It seems that the thing to do if you want to hit a lower-priced market is to reduce the number of features, not the quality of your work. Why not make a decent A-style instead of a poorly crafted F? It seems that's what some guitar makers do, they eliminate or simplify the binding, logo decal instead of inlay, basic woods, etc...

[Quote=Rod True]I would like to know how many of the folks here who have been to school (C.Fox, Roberto Venn, Robbie O'Brien, Gallop, Sergei de Jonge) what was instilled more, fit and finish or top tuning or.... Did your instructors get you to build that instrument so it would present well?[/quote]

I took Harry Fleishman's class a few years ago. I don't remember what we spent the most time on, but we did spend a lot of time talking about bracing theory and how to achieve a specific sound. Much more time than I thought we would spend in a two-week class. Fit and finish were stressed as well. At the beginning of class he set a rating scale of 1-5 on different processes, 1 being a quick and dirty job, and 5 being something with which you needed to be very fussy and meticulous because it was critical to get it exactly right. This was to get us to focus on what was important so we could try to finish in the allotted time. I remember that binding/purfling/rosette work was a 5, as were any issues that affect intonation.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:02 pm ]
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What a POS .... send it back. It takes 15 minutes longer to do proper mitres, at least better looking than those, than it does to cut crappy ones .. especially in plastic. Whoever said it was worth 200 bucks was certainly in the ball park.

As for pricing and reputation, in the morestd woods its obvioulsy name and prestige. Does any of the top end guys pay more for the best EI rw and a nice sitka top than I do, in order to ask 5 times the price of mine. Never. Even then, the difference between good and great wood is 50 bucks at most. I reference the new Rtaylors, where an all koa guitar is a 3K+ upgrade. The wood is worth 4-500 at most, and that doesnt include the rw and spruce they ARENT using in taht guitar.
Author:  Mario [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:35 pm ]
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The problem here is the builder tried to add all the fine goodies, like top line woods, fern inlays, full bindings, etc..., then tried to keep the price low, or justify it being low(2K for an F style is low, guys) via the sloppy work.

My take would be to send it back, and explain to the fella that he can hold his price point, but he needs to make the instrument simpler, but make it the best he can. If he only binds the top, and skips all the inlays, yet still uses the best woods and then puts some time into making the few fine details "nice", it'll look like a mandolin built by someone who's built 100. As it is, it looks rougher than most folk's 3rd....

And the mandolin I just described would be the equivalent of a Gibson F-5G, which is my favorite of their new ones. It really is best to keep things simple, yet do them very well, than to make them "full-on" and let the rough side drag. I actually see quite a lot of that(going for broke, with all the good stuff and bling, but too early and before you have the 'chops' to pull it all off) from many of you here.

Been there, learned from that, also.
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